Fluid Dynamics

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Jawatech Posts: 34 Registration: 2014-06-02
Will rivers actually flow? If i break an ice block will it turn into a never ending torrent of water? I was never a fan of the way minecraft handled water and other liquids. I would love to see liquid behave in a more realistic manner.
#1 2014-06-30
dodgerdog2000 Posts: 112 Registration: 2014-06-07 Popularity: 18
Agreed I love minecraft but the water is meh at best I think planets cubed can easily out do them here and please don't make signs block water lol.
#2 2014-06-30
Modified by dodgerdog2000 on 2014-06-30.
Jawatech Posts: 34 Registration: 2014-06-02
lol agreed
#3 2014-06-30
CodingMarmot Posts: 1050 Registration: 2014-04-15
Water handling is a hard technical problem. The main question is "finite or infinite liquids ?".
Infinite water will behave like you mentioned : a single block of water could spawn an infinite flow.
Finite water will be conservative. A single block of water would flow and stop into the nearest hole it can reach, but not multiply itself.
We would like to have other liquids like oil, fuel, etc. This is also an important gameplay choice, as they can serve as power source, and have an impact on a larger scale. We can wonder if draining a bucket of water from the sea could have an effect on the water level. Also, there are other problems, like the caves below the sea, which can be filled with water if there is a small hole.

As you see, this is not simple. There are still so much questions for which we have no final answer yet. We will try to get the best solution, in term of gameplay and performance.
#4 2014-06-30
Ominous Prime Posts: 15 Registration: 2014-06-02
I can see your point CodingMarmot. I think that the different resources like oil, fuels, and water should be finite if there is a system in place to replenish it over time. Water should be replenished through the weather system like a water cycle. Oils could be obtained from animals by crafting for example. Trees used for fuel could be replanted with seeds. It makes an interesting gameplay mechanic in that the player must balance resources available because they are not infinite. As far as the question of the seas, you could differentiate the water as salt water and fresh water. Salt water could be coded to be infinite as it could be looked at as not a resource for players.
#5 2014-06-30
Ominous Prime Posts: 15 Registration: 2014-06-02
It would be fun to see water move around as tiny, blocky particles that flow with the physics in place.
#6 2014-06-30
Dr Malakov Posts: 641
I think that finite water is more tricky but also more enjoyable.
For the sea, I would say that a bucket of water is not important because of the water cycle. But if you dig a big hole and fill it with water by means of a pipe or canal, that should affect the all level.
As I said, it's tricky for you. But I also thought to the player's computer ^^
#7 2014-06-30
Viendra Posts: 119 Registration: 2014-06-02
What about tides in regards to neighboring moons and planets? Actually scratch that, thats a trivial and dumb add on nobody really wants

What about water ways doe, i wanna make a Venice like city but will there be issues in regards to gates opening if they are semi submerged in the water?

In short. On a scale of 1-10 World of Warcraft being 10 and Munches Odyssey being 1
#8 2014-07-01
Modified by Viendra on 2014-07-01.
Jawatech Posts: 34 Registration: 2014-06-02
I actually really like the idea if an ocean draining into a cave system. I guess you will just have to do some testing to see what is possible. I can't wait to see what you come up with!
#9 2014-07-01
TylerL Posts: 16 Registration: 2014-06-02
A possible solution to the ocean draining into a cave system would be to use a pump to remove the water from the cave. Once removed the cave will be able to be explored without worrying about the water.

Another method would be to create scuba diving gear that has an oxygen tank and mask so that you could explore the water-filled cave without worrying about needing air.
#10 2014-07-01
pinkie Posts: 6 Registration: 2014-04-23
Published By CodingMarmot2014-06-30 21:26:27Water handling is a hard technical problem. The main question is "finite or infinite liquids ?".
Infinite water will behave like you mentioned : a single block of water could spawn an infinite flow.
Finite water will be conservative. A single block of water would flow and stop into the nearest hole it can reach, but not multiply itself.
We would like to have other liquids like oil, fuel, etc. This is also an important gameplay choice, as they can serve as power source, and have an impact on a larger scale. We can wonder if draining a bucket of water from the sea could have an effect on the water level. Also, there are other problems, like the caves below the sea, which can be filled with water if there is a small hole.

As you see, this is not simple. There are still so much questions for which we have no final answer yet. We will try to get the best solution, in term of gameplay and performance.

Hi. What about waves and ripples? And the abillity to make power from fluid physics like a river watermill?

Also physx could be added optionally, it would make it much easyer for fluid dynamics. Planet explorers has water thats quite dynamic without physx

Like a cave that u open to the ocean will get filled gradually but it flows in
#11 2014-07-01
Modified by pinkie on 2014-07-01.
Neonthecoder Posts: 44 Registration: 2014-06-07
Well in minecraft there's a mod that makes it so the ocean is a different block type of water so it's the original block but when you empty a water bucket it's finite, that could solve issues, but like small puddles and like pools could also be finite.
#12 2014-07-01
Mohrcore Posts: 14 Registration: 2014-06-02
I think, that finite water would be just great, but then I can't imagine water "infinitely" flowing in rivers. Also if water is going to be finite, there should be pumps, to make "infinite" cycles for item transport systems, fountains, etc... I think, that implementing really good finite water mechanics might be one of the hardest tasks in physics and mechanics development...
#13 2014-07-02
Modified by Mohrcore on 2014-07-02.
Dr Malakov Posts: 641
Published By Mohrcore2014-07-02 16:15:09I think, that finite water would be just great, but then I can't imagine water "infinitely" flowing in rivers. Also if water is going to be finite, there should be pumps, to make "infinite" cycles for item transport systems, fountains, etc... I think, that implementing really good finite water mechanics might be one of the hardest tasks in physics and mechanics development...
Yes, If water is finite, the water cycle must exist. Which means that rain could fill a hole and soil could be permeable, but not always (rocks block flows and sand don't...
That's why it's challenging. That's also why it would be really great. (imagine drought or inondations !)
#14 2014-07-02
Templar Posts: 100 Registration: 2014-06-07 Popularity: 39
The processing it might take for processing all the water voxels on a planet including rainfall, to keep rivers running, etc, would be rather large. If they managed it though, it would be spectacular.
#15 2014-07-11
Novixa Posts: 29 Registration: 2014-06-03 Popularity: 8
I think there need to be two types of water source blocks oceans, rivers and large lakes would be infinite sources as having the water cycle is unnecessary and too complicated for such a minor part of the game. Small pools and the like can be finite water source and there for used up. Water taken from sea or river creates as a finite source in the receptacle and does not affect the original source, So if create a pool from collecting water from a river it will still be a finite source.

As for underground caves filling with water, I think it should. It will take a lot of computing to calculate how much of a large cave system should be flooded and to what level, so I think that a similar system to the minecraft 8 block flow would need to be implemented not to slow the regen rate too much. Longer than 8 would be better though to make it look better. As with everything it has to be a balance between what would be nice and what can be achieved without ruining the fps.
#16 2014-07-14
Komposten Posts: 199 Registration: 2014-06-02
Published By Novixa2014-07-14 13:43:13I think there need to be two types of water source blocks oceans, rivers and large lakes would be infinite sources as having the water cycle is unnecessary and too complicated for such a minor part of the game. Small pools and the like can be finite water source and there for used up. Water taken from sea or river creates as a finite source in the receptacle and does not affect the original source, So if create a pool from collecting water from a river it will still be a finite source.

As for underground caves filling with water, I think it should. It will take a lot of computing to calculate how much of a large cave system should be flooded and to what level, so I think that a similar system to the minecraft 8 block flow would need to be implemented not to slow the regen rate too much. Longer than 8 would be better though to make it look better. As with everything it has to be a balance between what would be nice and what can be achieved without ruining the fps.
The problem with source blocks that generate an infinite flow is that the would fill up entire caves. And having a 8-block flow limit feels so silly and unrealistic. I love the way Terraria works; if you open a hole from the sea to your cave, your cave will be full of water unless you fill that hole up again. That's one of the dangers with mining and I think that danger should exist.

The only problem I can see with that (except for the obvious "draw water from an entire ocean" calculation problem) is that it wouldn't make waterfalls possible since they would run out of water eventually (unless a complete water cycle is added).
#17 2014-07-15
Drakon Registration: 2014-06-02
What about spring blocks? In hills and mountains there will be infinite source of water. Game would calculate which way would this water will flow, thus creating rivers with dynamic flow. If 2 rivers connects, they get bigger and so on.
#18 2014-08-11
MyTagforHalo2 Posts: 1 Registration: 2014-06-15
By far my favorite take on fluid physics for these kinds of games would be the Finite Liquid mod for mine craft.

This mod at it's core changed how water worked. Ocean blocks (and only Ocean blocks with bodies connected to them like rivers) would have Infinite water. But it was not minecraft style infinite, if you were to dig a huge hole and then connect the ocean to it, it would fill the hole all the way up to the same level as the ocean (followed hydraulic physics)

Areas like lakes, ponds, underground water sources, ect. Would have Finite liquid. This means that if you were to dig a hole next to a lake with a equal ammount of volume, then the two "lakes" when connected would perfectly level out. If the new hole was bigger, then you could completely drain the whole lake without having to fill it with blocks/ use a bucket.

It also removed the totally un relistic water blocks that would flow for 5 spaces and then just sit there. The water would all level out to fill the space evenly, jsut like you would expect water to.

Also added was a functioning water system. As rain now would spawn 1/8th block sized water pools at random that would proceed to flow to the nearest hole, or sit there for a bit before evaporating. When either living near large bodies of water, melting snow, or evaporating water with lava or another heat source would produce vapor, which if released in a large enough quantity to the atmosphere would causr it to rain.

Some of the fun additions to the mod, were specialized water pumping blocks, or those that would perform differently with the water. Like having a metal grate that would allow water to flow through but stop anything else. You could actually pump water from the ocean (in-finite) into a pond or waterfall that you wanted water in (finite) and fill it up. Or you could make elaboriote mob traps,water parks, really interesting architecture, ect.

Overall it was a fantastic mod that I dont quite think is being full y supported with new releases. And its stuff i've never seen another dev attempt.

Im sure you can find videos on youtube if you wanted. I would love to see this added to the game. It adds a nice bit of realism that minecraft and many other games definitely lacked.
#19 2014-10-15
Templar Posts: 100 Registration: 2014-06-07 Popularity: 39
Very good arguments there MyTagforHalo2 and well put ideas. At first I thought "Hell I ain't reading all that", but I got captivated.
#20 2014-10-15
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